By gisette
Soil vs. Aerogarden, Growing Tomatoes and Peppers Indoors
Submitted on Mon, 2010/04/19 - 8:37pm
Last updated on Tue, 2010/04/20 - 3:06pm
Since Hengis brought it up 
, I wanted to pull together some results of experiments on growing tomatoes and peppers, in self-watering containers and lights indoors, vs. in the Aerogarden. Commentary in next post - this is just the data collected to look at.
Short Version : Seems like it's better to grow fruiting plants in potting mix indoors, than in an Aerogarden. Potting mix may well beat other forms of deep water culture, as well. I can't comment about other possible hydroponic options.
My experiments are with carmen peppers and jet star tomatoes. Both produce medium size fruit.
From my Aerogarden Deluxe grow Peppers, the Rematch aged 20 weeks.
Aged 14 weeks. It never did produce well. Slow, with scrawny peppers.
This plant I also grew inside last winter/spring. This is a picture of it at 12 weeks. That window was kinda chilly, and the light was weaker than my CFL array - fewer hours / day.
From my Aerogarden Deluxe grow The Compact Indeterminate Tomato aged 12.5 weeks.
Terminated the plant at 12.5 weeks - completely unpromising, no flowers opening, just dead buds and horrible growth pattern.
Now contrast these with my 12 week results in a self-watering container and 6500K CFL grow lights (my grow CFL and Soil Tomatoes and Peppers - the LEDs were retired early there). Now using slightly more wattage than one Aerogarden Deluxe per plant.
Related to this, also see Beth's Tiny Tim Tomato Grow Competition, Aerogarden vs. soil under 6500K fluorescents. For this competition, Beth tossed the AG plants at 13 weeks as completely unpromising - just as I did with the AG jet star.
Conclusion : For growing tomatoes and peppers indoors, you can beat Aerogarden performance with potting mix in a self-watering container and 6500K CFLs - at least 80W for peppers, and at least 100W for midsize tomatoes.
Although the Aerogarden can work for certain midget varieties of peppers and tomatoes and eggplant, it's just a heartbreak to try growing mid-size fruit in one. It'll be a long wait, months invested, then a very low chance of a good yield.
Don't get me wrong - I love Aerogardens. They're great for lettuces and herbs and some flowers. But from what I've seen of my own experiments and others', on this site and others - I believe I have a better way to grow fruiting plants, and won't use the Aerogarden for that again.
Edit: now the site's working again, changed the links to point to individual postings, not whole pages.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 10:53am
#2
I completely agree with Gisette on the AG front, I would never use them to grow another tomato; although Beth's peppers are outstanding. AeroGardens, for me now, are there to be pulled apart and experimented on - I don't see myself growing much else in them I'm afraid, perhaps some lettuce/herbs one day...
When you see what you can build yourself (much cheaper too) with a bit of DIY know how then you won't look back. They are a good little machine to start someone off in the world of hydroponics, you can learn all the basics and experiment with EC and pH before going onto the bigger systems with much better results.
Hydroponics/Aeroponics will always beat soil if you take care of the plants needs, give it the correct lighting, nutrients and look after the EC/pH and your onto a winner.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 11:15am
#3
I'm not convinced hydroponics / aeroponics always beat soil, Peat.
I am convinced it's a whole lot easier to grow tomatoes and peppers really well with potting mix in a self-watering container. Getting the nutrients and pH right, and having them stay right, month after month, is vastly easier with the growbox-style method of simply liming the soil a little, and providing a little pile of good slow-release nutes on top. Thereafter, simply add plain water to the reservoir.
Because maintaining the EC/pH in the hydro / aero method is so much pickier, and the plants live a long time, errors take their toll, and by harvest time the potting mix will have outperformed.
Peppers are borderline. Yes, you can grow small peppers in hydro/Aerogarden. Bigger peppers do better in soil. I suspect peppers do better than tomatoes in the Aerogarden, because they're more OK with the light temperature of the AG bulbs. Tomatoes misbehave in that light temperature. But there's no contest between my full-size carmen peppers in an Aerogarden vs. potting mix. Soil wins, by a wide margin.
Remember - I did say that this is not true of lettuces and herbs. They yield much faster in hydro. Tomatoes and peppers don't, though, or may even yield faster in potting mix. I imagine their root systems are just a whole lot stronger.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 11:16am
#4
Hengis - good luck with the toms in perlite! I'd love to see your grow, if you have a picture later on.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 11:44am
#5
Ooh a debate...
Take a look at the GH website, quote: "In hydroponics we provide the minerals required for plant growth directly, completely eliminating the need for soil and soil organisms. The result is much higher growth rates and yields, and better crop quality than organic methods can achieve."
Plenty of other sites I could link to as well, these ones are going for 3x yield.
I will grant you that hydro/aero is much more difficult to maintain though, your grow boxes are far simpler to use and less involved.
I, and many others, still maintain that hydro/aero is best- you aren't changing my mind soil grower. 
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 11:48am
#6
Alright, I was going to make some other comments here, but broke the site and got distracted last night. 
Comment 1 : The color temperature of the fluorescent lights is key. Best : 6500K or partial sunlight.
This seems to contradict a lot of what I read on the web, especially in LED sales material. They seem to say that blue light speeds vegetative growth, and reddish light speeds fruiting. Like, 6500K fluorescent lights would only be good until it's time for a tomato to bud, and then you'd want to switch to ~4200K fluorescents.
What I'm seeing is that tomatoes' growth pattern is best with 6500K light, period. Though I've added redder lights, it's important never to take away the 6500K lights. They need that light to keep from growing unruly. It keeps tomato internodes short and tidy. I'm not convinced the tomato ever needs redder light - Beth's tomatoes grow well with 6500K all the way.
Peppers don't seem to care as much what color light they get between 3500K-6500K. They just want light. They do, however, want light all the way down the plant.
I think this is why peppers succeed more often in an Aerogarden than tomatoes do. The Aerogarden light is too red, and the tomatoes stretch and re-stretch forever. The most successful AG tomato grows I've seen either used a bonus 6500K "daylight" lamp aimed at them, or got sunlight from a window.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 12:01pm
#7
Yeah, a debate. 
(Peat and I cross-posted.)
Your link's claim of typical results with active hydroponics at 3x soil yields, kinda tarnishes their credibility. 
There are lots of people saying lots of things on the web. And some of those seemingly accepted truths, I've proven to myself were dead wrong.
But the active hydroponics point is interesting. I haven't used active hydroponics - ebb and flow, and possibly hengis' and the Autopots 'smart valve' systems. Bruce's Autopots seemed to give outstanding results. I've only used deep water culture a la Aerogardens and roll-your-own Aerogardens. And for fruiting plants, I find DWC lacking.
If I went to that much bother babysitting pH and EC and got superior results compared to potting mix, that would be one thing. What I've gotten instead is a dismal waste of time, repeated time and again.
It's interesting to me that all the active hydroponics they listed (and the Autopots, and hengis' plan) all involved substrate. As in, the fruiting plant's roots were given something to anchor into. That bit of physics, and getting the roots out of the water most of the time, may make a huge difference. We've talked about this before with the cucumber grow problem. I'm pretty sure cukes will not thrive in DWC. But they also need a horrific amount of light to grow indoors...
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 12:55pm
#8
The AeroGarden just isn't up to growing anything large, it's very limiting, lights and reservoir capacity wise.
Put your plants into a proper hydro/aero setup with decent lights and things will be much different - the Dutch grow an incredible amount of crops for export each year - all using hydroponics, the Canadians come a close second with other countries catching on. Why don't they use soil and grow under lights in a greenhouse, simple, the hydro way is much better, cleaner, and produces more.
Have a look at Wikipedia, specifically the yields of hydroponic vs soil (if you trust this..) It's pretty much conclusive. The fact remains that commercial hydroponics systems have proved more productive than conventional systems of agriculture, and that's from other sources beyond Wiki.
Actually you have used active hydroponics, all the following are classed as such :-
Nutrient Film Technique (NFT)
Ebb & Flow (or Flood & Drain)
Drip Fed Media
Aeroponics
Raft Type Systems
Passive units use a wick or capillary system.
It's not always about getting the roots out of the water, consider the lettuce raft system in use by commercial growers (and myself briefly). The roots sit in the water 24/7, they don't die because of aeration from air stones, certain plants can be grown this way and actually grow better for it.
As for the cucumber, I don't know, I'm still blaming the small AG capacity. Before I discount that it cannot be grown using DWC I would want to prove it for myself using a decent sized reservoir. At some point in the future I'll do this again and see how it works out.
My typing hand now hurts, can you just concede.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 1:28pm
#9
Ooh, loved the lights discussion on that Wikepedia article. These lights.
I wished the yield comparison table was more developed.
OK, I used the wrong word. What I meant was not deep water culture. I believe DWC is good for lettuce and other leafies. I believe the tomato family - and probably other vining fruit - benefit from substrate. And I'm confident commerical growers use substrate-based hydroponic systems for big plants, and water baths only for leafies. And not all leafies - spinach cannot abide a water bath. We agree - some plants do well with roots immersed in water. Some really, really don't. Others - like tomatoes and peppers, and I suspect cucumbers - do better with substrate.
You can stop arguing anytime you want, Peat. I'm enjoying the dialog and learning new stuff - like those intriguing lights linked above!
But I conclude soil beats DWC on peppers and tomatoes. If I try hydroponics again on them, I'm thinking soil vs. Autopot, which is about the most complex type of roots-mostly-dry-and-anchored-in-substrate system I'd care to operate in my living room.
(Hengis's system is essentially a DIY Autopot - uses smartvalve and substrate.)
P.S. On those lights - first I've ever seen halogen as a growlight - claimed as a low energy growlight at that... Biax bulbs in general look like old-style AG bulbs - good for leafy growing only. Curious how different AgriHouse's bulbs are from that.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 1:53pm
#10
P.S.I keep thinking about how in that Wikipedia article, they said that all commercial hydroponic tomato growers use some variety of run-to-waste system. That's gotta be expensive, so I'm fairly sure they do it because they have to.
That syncs well with what I've experienced trying to grow tomatoes in an Aerogarden, and how the pH and EC just won't stay stable - really need to dump the tank every week and start over.
I wonder if, using Autopots, that would amount to a dire need to run water through the system regularly, or at least, wash the substrate.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 2:08pm
#11
Nice lights, didn't even see those- was transfixed to the yield table. 
DWC doesn't necessarily mean that the plants roots sit permanently in the water, the general method of growing is to drop the water level below the net pots/substrate when the roots begin to enter the water. It's what I'm currently doing with my AG broccoli, the water level sits about an inch below my net basket to allow the air roots to develop - you can then grow your toms, cukes etc using this method.
Commercial growers will be using substrate to grow their larger crops as you said, usually rockwool blocks, or something similar, which are then transplanted into larger rockwool blocks for stability as the plant grows. I'm not sure if they use DWC, I'm thinking it's an NFT system, not entirely sure, I'll have a dig round later to satisfy my curiosity.
I like a good debate, we've not had one for a long time. 
Edit: Cross Post - The AG is awful for keeping things stable because it's too small capacity wise, a nice big reservoir will make things much easier. It's also a good idea to run pH adjusted water through the substrate every now and then to flush unused salts out, I do this every now and then with my rockwool.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 2:08pm
#12
Good! Me too, re the debate. 
Another thing I noticed in that yield table, is that cauliflower had the lowest yield differential hydro vs. field, in Bengal. That doesn't bode so well for hydroponic broccoli. My other brassicas (mustard and toy choi) were similar. Yes, leafies. But they grow just as well in soil.
Also field soybeans in the US beat the hydroponic yields in Bengal. Another plant family that is perhaps not conducive to hydro growing.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 2:12pm
#13
Possibly not good news for my broccoli then...
I hope it will head sometime, it would be a shame after all the work I've put into it. The plant is virtually draining my reservoir every day, it doesn't half use some water!
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 2:33pm
#14
Well, unlike tomatoes and beans and peppers and cucumbers, my brassicas don't grow worse in an Aerogarden. Just not any better.
I have faith in your broccoli to head.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 3:52pm
#15
My 2 cents: for the SMALL home gardner, wanting a few fresh, no pesticide, veggies, I have to agree with Gisette as to the grow/earthboxes being the better way to go. The AG's are just to expensive, and to labor intensive, with a very small yield compared to the growboxes. Even the self-watering pots beat the AG yields.
I'm going to keep a couple of AG's for herbs & lettuce but will sell the rest. My outside pots, planted a month after the AG's, are already out-growing the AG's. So be it.
You two enjoy your debating!
J
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 4:05pm
#16
You're part of it now.
Agree, the AG's are too small to grow much in comparison with a grow/earthbox - I'm probably not going to do much with the two I have now, the broccoli saved one of mine from being wrapped up and put away for storage.
Your outside pots are probably getting much better light though, you have to compare like for like. Say you gave one AG over to soil (remove the top cover/innards, soil in, use the original light), and then use the other as intended, the hydro one would win.
Now there's an idea, a soil garden with light. 
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 4:35pm
#17
hahahahaha no, no. I love reading the points you both come up with.
But -- doing your suggested experment wouldn't work because the soil one STILL wouldn't have enough room for the roots. And, AG's seem to need added light.
Gisette --- help!!!
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 4:40pm
#18
It would have room if you grew some of the standard cut/come again lettuce...
Also, the AG bulbs would be adequate for this particular crop.
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 5:13pm
#19
I don't have any problem with lettuce & herbs in the AG & will continue to grow those in the AG's. I may continue with my "fooled you jalapeno's" too. But that's about it. I'm giving up trying anything else in the AG's.
Right now I've got pots outside doing incredibly well. I'm happy with that right now. My personal experiences with the AG are not great, and with prior earthboxes was fantastic. So I'm going back. Just my personal opinion!
Enjoy!
Tue, 2010/04/20 - 8:14pm
#20
Peat's not fighting fair. No one ever argued that lettuce and herbs grew faster in soil - they do not. They grow wildly faster hydroponically. And they're just not that fussy about light. Some of my flowers seem to be that way too. Others, not.
I am growing tomatoes and peppers in soil and artificial light. So has Beth - tomatoes and cucumbers. I've grown cucumbers in DWC (two tries!) and in soil under lights, too. That's what started this conversation, after all. 
They grow much better in soil than in an Aerogarden / DWC.
There exist small peppers that grow OK in an AG. Jalapeños seem to do really well, as Judith was saying. My popper peppers did OK. I'm actually growing a pair for outdoors this summer. Will be interesting to see how they grow outside the Aerogarden. I'm fairly sure they'll do better. Miniature eggplant aren't very useful, but they grew in the AG, too.
At this point, my guess is that my tomatoes and peppers are light-limited. So they would not grow especially better, no matter how good a hydroponic scheme you came up with, unless they got better light. I could be wrong though.
All those vast hydroponic tomato fields, of course, use sunlight. Preferably subtropic sunlight, at that. Probably in winter, to cut A/C costs.
After my tomatoes and peppers have settled into some kind of yield habit, I'll probably kick one or both outdoors. I expect yields will be larger then. Last year's January carmen pepper bore lots more peppers than the one I grew outdoors from young transplant in a growbox - it moved outside very well.
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 10:41am
#21
So, all our AG's are now partially redundant? Confined to lettuce/herbs/flowers/jalapeños and smaller grows...
We've all tried them, they seemed good at the time, but the limitations have become obvious. Funny, I though I'd not lose interest in mine so quickly, one is in storage and the other was, as I said before, saved by a broccoli plant - but even that was modified; this plant may well be the last one I'll try.
I'll be concentrating more on the DIY hydro/aero systems now, exploring more of their capabilities as the aero/hydro one has only done lettuce and tomatoes, it's got more to give yet - a cuke would be good. When I receive my UFO LED back (I've still not got it!) then some grows with this - if it can last longer than 6 months this time!!!!
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 11:24am
#22
Thanks Gisette!
Peat: Unfortunately it seems your statement is right on! To limiting to be of real help except for those things you mentioned. I am interested in the broccoli grow tho. Could you send me a link? Or maybe I can search for it.
I'll be doing mostly outside things this year, and try to bring them in, or cover them on bad winter days. THAT ought to be interesting!
Enjoy!
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 11:39am
#23
Judith - Peat's broccoli grow.
See? We're all basically agreed.
It's definitely hard to beat outdoor sunlight for growing, in the bright half of the year.
Seedlings. That's another thing the AG is good at - giving seedlings a quick head start. I've never used the seedling tray, tho. The quick head start isn't really the problem I need solved with seedlings, anyway. Rather, the many weeks to grow them to transplant-outside maturity (12 weeks in the case of pansies, 6-8 weeks snapdragons and peppers and eggplants, etc.)
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 1:36pm
#24
See? We're all basically agreed.
It only took 23 posts to get there.
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 3:49pm
#25
See? We're all basically agreed. -- It only took 23 posts to get there
Tomorrow I'm going to Lowe's & pick up a 4x4 raised bed. Will try that in a 'square foot gardening' pattern. Plants to be determined.
Enjoy!
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 4:13pm
#26
Nice, Judith!!! I wish I could do a real raised bed for vegetables... Next home, I promise me.
Have you seen the raised bed garden planning tool at Gardener's Supply? Kinda cute.
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 5:19pm
#27
Yes, I've spent some time today researching & the Lowe's one seems a better value. check here What do you think? The Gardener's Supply does have accessories to fit their beds tho. I called about this and they're 4x4 & 9" high.
Opinions please.
J
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 5:21pm
#28
Ooh, Judith - that's a really good deal at Lowe's! Good shopping job!
The link at Gardener's Supply was a toy for garden plant planning - how to plant the bed. I agree - their prices seem steep. But the tool seemed fun.
How much of what soil / etc. is it going to take to fill that raised bed? I hope you've got someone to help with the heavy lifting.
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 5:52pm
#29
I didn't follow the link because I did find a garden plan for the beds at Gardeners Supply & it's basically just to give you an idea of how to plant the beds. Square foot planting does that and much more. I have the book from years ago when I tried my first beds after my husband died. That book even shows you how to plant in succession. But I'm getting a little suspicious about the height. The guy I spoke to said their's was 9" high, but I found what looks like the same thing in the GS catalog & it says the height is 6". That's not quite high enough. I may not be able to use Lowe's. Grrrrrrr.
Funny you mentioned the lifting. I was outside, and wanting to fill some pots, I went to the shed & tried to roll out a wagon that had a large bag of potting soil in it. The wagon got stuck ---- I thought ---- so I tried to unstick it with force. Bad decision. Turned out the wagon has flat tires ----- and of course there went my back. I almost screamed with the pain. I am now back in the recliner, babying my back. Grrrrrr. And to top it all off, my daughter says I have to accept my limitations and shouldn't be planting anyway. Can you guesss how angry that made me? Next time, hopefully tomorrow, I'll fill the pot in the shed and use my garden buddy to roll the pot to it's spot in the yard. Where there's a will there's a way. At least for now anyway. It IS making me re-think the raised bed though. Maybe I should stick to pots. At least I can still move those around if I stay reasonably small. Maybe I should use a soil-less medium? Well, more research in order.
Enjoy!
Wed, 2010/04/21 - 10:21pm
#30
I think I have the same first edition of Square Foot Gardening. 
The growboxes do help with the bending and tending, since the planters are knee-high. You can pull up a chair to sit and play with the short plants and planting. No need to weed. No kneeling. Stand to tend taller plants like peppers and tomatoes. And you could probably grow as much in 3 or 4 growboxes as in a 4x4 raised bed, depending on what you grow. I get 2-3 succession plantings in here, and your growing season is much longer. Sort of a different approach - like, a crop of radishes, lettuces, toy choi, and spinaches, growing around the base of a tomato before it shoots up. Sort of interleaved succession planting.
Carrying the 40 quarts of potting mix apiece it takes to fill a growbox, is a challenge. The 36-or-so quart bags are cheaper than the carryable ones. My first two growboxes are on the 3rd floor of my condo... I think I made my daughter carry up the second bag. For my mother's tomato plant, I set her up with a Walmart self-watering spa. Dad felt his belonged in the ground - farm boy. (His younger wife tended the plant, tho.)
I hope your back is better soon!
My daughter's actually just come up with a help-seniors-garden idea for her high school senior exhibition. They have to do this full year project proof that they've learned to be self-directed learners - that they can plan a major learning&doing operation, meet their goals (research, planning, time management...), writeups, journals of their process, presentations, etc. We had a big fight earlier today because she wanted to write a novella for seniorX and I thought she should get out of her room and her head, and instead go forth into the world for seniorX. (Well, the fight aspect just started from there...) Anyway, her idea is to organize kids who need to do community service anyway (40 hours for high school graduation, and maybe 20 for middle school graduation), and help seniors and other people who couldn't manage their gardens. It's a good idea. I dunno whether your local high schools have kids hungry for community service hours who might be willing to do the heavy lifting for you. Since apparently your daughter doesn't want to. Anyway, just a thought.
Hi Gisette thanks for the info.I intend growing most of my toms in perlite using a smart valve or myself to control the water depth. I thing this is similar to your growbox except you use dirt and feed with a slow release fert.